Wyatt & Alfreda Benge - Dream Magazine #5 - Spring 2005
ROBERT WYATT & ALFREDA BENGE
It was a rare treat to speak to
Robert Wyatt by phone for this interview, I'd like to gratefully
acknowledge Joyce at Cuneiform Records for kindly setting
this up. When I first dreamt of doing Dream Magazine, Robert
Wyatt's name was near the top of the list of folks I wanted
to talk to. I've been tuned into his stuff since the first
Soft Machine album, though he had recorded as early as 1962
as a member of The Wilde Flowers, and as a solo artist,
continues to this day as one of the most artistically vital
avant pop composer/singers of his, or any generation since.
His angelic lighter than air voice is one of the most unique
and lovely ever recorded, his continuing creative flow reveals
some of the finest work in a forty-plus year career. His
open armed embrace of jazz, folk, pop, socialist politics,
intelligence, wit, minimalism, progressive rock, compassion,
psychedelia, several different international musical forms,
and his own distinctive vision is a singular contribution
to the history of recorded music. He's worked with folks
that range from Jimi Hendrix, Syd Barrett, and Brian Eno,
to newer artists like Björk, and Hood. It was also
great to get to talk to Alfreda Benge, who is: illustrator,
instigator, inspiration, coconspirator, often lyricist,
and painter wife of Robert Wyatt, (also the subject of many
of his songs). Robert and Alfreda deserve a book, not just
this truncated chat; though we talked for over an hour,
I felt like we were only scratching the surface.
G.P.: Hello Robert.
R.W.: Can you hear me OK?
R.W.: This is a different phone. Maybe it's because
a blizzard is coming, or maybe it's just weather stuff going
G.P.: Could be. I'm hoping we can also talk to
your wife and frequent collaborator Alfreda later on, if
R.W.: A good idea. She's upstairs right now, but
will be down later. I'll ask her if she's up for it when
she comes down.
G.P.: You've worked repeatedly with certain folks;
you worked with Michael Mantler, and Carla Bley, and now
their daughter Karen.
R.W.: Right. (laughter)
G.P.: She contributed quite a bit to Cuckooland.
What is it about those folks that you found such an affinity
R.W.: Well they're a great family. I think each of
them is really unique; you can't really describe the genre
of music they're into. It's really fascinating; the parents
are very disciplined for jazz players, and it's interesting
to see Karen coming out of that background. Although I'm
of the same musical generation as her parents; the fact
that Karen makes her music out of recognizable notes, and
songs and like that; makes her music much more like mine,
than her parent's is. But, she brings that kind of careful
and astute knowledge of music to it.
G.P.: Her pieces work really well on Cuckooland.
R.W.: Well I'm glad you think so. The other thing
is she's so... I mean Karen went through a punk period,
kind of as a teenager. But the fact is she's learned a lot
of discipline compared to me; and I was sort of interested
in playing the role of kind of wicked uncle; and kind of
messing it all up a bit. (laughter) Getting some of that
dirty noise in there.
G.P.: It also feels like you're sort of a member
of the extended Pink Floyd family.
R.W.: Well, I don't know. It's actually rather distant,
the thing about Pink Floyd is that it's actually another
planet really; the planet "rich" for a start.
Not the undeserving rich, they're rich because other people
buy their records.
G.P.: You have worked with most of those people
though. Can you tell me a bit of what Syd Barrett was like
as a person?
R.W.: Well, he was very nice.
G.P.: Not a loon huh?
R.W.: In those days how could you possibly tell?
(laughter) I mean what would have been unusual about that?
G.P.: (laughter) That's true. What did you work
R.W.: I played drums on a few tracks of A Madcap
G.P.: I really enjoyed the album Songs
by John Greaves, it featured you on three tracks. How did
that collaboration come about?
R.W.: I've known John a long time, and Peter Blegvad
is one of the great wordsmiths of our time.
G.P.: Oh yeah.
R.W.: Anyway they just asked me if I would sing a
few things. [Lengthy response that is inaudible].
G.P.: Who or what are some of your conscious songwriting
R.W.: You know I have no idea, I can tell you what
I enjoy. American writer Ogden Nash for one, the best songwriter
that I can think of is Randy Newman.
G.P.: Ah, he's incredible.
R.W.: There are a lot of people that kind of get
to me and John Lennon was one of them, but for the rest
I don't really know. I can't separate influences from things
that I've enjoyed. I forget to mention this but a great
deal of what used to be called , the "hep talk"
of the 40s and 50s, like Cab Calloway and Slim & Slam,
maybe you don't remember that.
G.P.: Sure I do.
R.W.: Alright then, you'll know what I'm talking
about. Like the mad lyrics that Dizzy Gillespie used to
do like "sh'bam, a gloog a mop" which I think
is a very good line.
R.W.: (laughing) I think that's as good as anything
Little Richard came up with.
G.P.: I really enjoyed your contributions to the
Winged Migration film; how did your participation
happen on that project?
R.W.: They pretty much just asked. Composer Bruno
Coulais does music direction for that filmmaker's (Jacques
Perrin) various subjects. This time they wanted to do the
thing you're not meant to do; which is to anthropomorphize
the subjects. So in other words it's not a straight nature
film. The original title in French is "Migrating
G.P.: Oh really?
R.W.: And I think that's a good title really. And
uh, so anyway they wanted some singing on it and they asked.
And I said "I don't normally do things like this."
They said: "It would really only be your voice and
our lyrics". And when I heard it they had me.
G.P.: Well, they really sound like pieces that
you might have written.
R.W.: Yeah, well that's what he was trying to do.
It was part of his way of getting me to do it.
G.P.: What did you think of the finished film?
R.W.: Oh, it was very nice. The words were originally
written in French, and had to be translated into English
in a singable way; so Alfie; as is often the case; uncredited,
but she's really shy about getting credit. But on the other
hand she does all this stuff. She actually rewrote the whole
thing to make it singable for me. I couldn't have done it.
In fact when I first got the lyrics, I said "I can't
sing this." But she reworked is so that could. So she's
the hidden ingredient there; the catalyst that made that
G.P.: You have long been a supporter of animal
rights, what would you say to someone to raise their awareness
regarding animals and their treatment?
R.W.: Well, not to proselytize; but as far as I'm
concerned we're all animals. And anything that's got a beating
heart, it's just trying to live like you are. So if you're
going to eat it or use it, go ahead. But just sort of think
about that for a moment. Try to be nice to it while it's
alive at least.
G.P.: Tell me about your album Cuckooland
and how it came into being?
R.W.: Well more than anything, as you may know about
the last couple albums; were sort of kick-started by taking
some of Alfie's lyrics and putting them to music, or occasionally;
as is the case with Alien, from my previous album
Shleep, where she actually wrote words to my music.
But in this case I don't think the record would have interested
me without Alfie's words. I just haven't got enough coherent
material, I had sort of scraps of tunes knocking about for
years literally. And Alfie said we had to just get on with
it, and do it. It's how we earn our living for a start;
I get a pension, but this a large part of our income.
G.P.: Well it's interesting how it feels so coherent;
it doesn't seem put together it feels like a piece.
R.W.: Well I think that's why it takes me so long
to get things together. Everything has to be sort of re-tailored
and remade so that it feels natural and organic. But I think
in this case; the musical ideas I had, reduced the lyrics
to sort of mantras and things, and I really was getting
nowhere. And Alfie just went through stuff of mine. I dug
out some tapes; pre-digital stuff that I'd done. And she
wrote words to things, and came up with words for Old
Europe, and Forest, and Lullaby for Hamza.
And then she had some poems that she was working on that
became songs. Alfie's here at the moment; she's been upstairs,
she's been working on all kinds of stuff, but just came
down for a bowl of soup. So if you did want to speak to
her, this would be a good moment.
G.P.: Yeah, I would like to.
R.W.: OK, I'll hand you over to Alfie.
G.P.: Hello, well I kind of wanted to talk to
you about your part of the musical thing and your paintings
too. Who were some of your influences as a painter, or do
you have them?
A.B.: Well I wouldn't call most of what I do for
Robert paintings really; they're sort of illustrations.
Ever since I've done paintings and drawings, I draw from
life and I paint out of my head. So all these images are
out of my head really. They're kind of narrative, most often,
sometimes they're more graphic, because I was into graphic
design. So I sort of apply various bits of my training,
according to what I think or feel the subject is. So, in
that sense they're illustrations.
G.P.: There seems to be a sort of surrealist sensibility
to some of them.
A.B.: Well, I don't know. They're not surrealist;
they're more jokey. They're almost paintings of cartoons
G.P.: Uh huh.
A.B.: My favorite painters don't paint like me at
G.P.: Well, who are they?
A.B.: (laughing) Well, I like Bonnard. I like the
use of paint by Matisse and Bonnard; all the old, boring
old masters of the 2Oth century really. I like Kurt Schwitters.
I like painters that use paint to paint what they see. I
like painters that use space nicely.
G.P.: Lately I've been obsessed with Charles Burchfield.
A.B.: I don't know him.
G.P.: Oh, try to find something by him. He did
some wonderful watercolors, he's unlike anybody else.
G.P.: When you work on lyrics for Robert; is it
a poem set to music, or do you hear the music first?
A.B.: Well they vary. On Dondestan they all
already existed and Robert just set them to music. They
were from a sort of diary, and he thought they had music
in them. And the same with the stuff on Shleep; except
for Alien which is the first one actually where he
got stuck for lyrics. For Alien he actually gave
me the music, and I sat about and listened to it for a few
days. I shut my eyes and tried to think what the story of
the music was. So bits of words would come in with the music.
With the music I think where am I in this picture, and sometimes
a series of notes will suggest a word, like Lullaby for
Hamza; I just heard 'lullaby'.
G.P.: Have you ever thought about doing an album
of your own ?
A.B.: (laughter) Well, I'd love to do that, yeah.
I'm a musical ninny; I could get the odd tune, the lyrical
tune, but I think, no. I have actually just been asked by
a French producer to write some lyrics for him, so I'm branching
out. I'm becoming the Grandma Moses of lyrics.
A.B.: (laughter) I find it extreme fun, I've never
found anything more enjoyable actually. Because it's not
like dealing with a piece of blank paper. With a painting
you've got this big white space and have to put something
on it. But to be given a piece of music and to try to find
the words in that is real fun!
G.P.: It's like somebody's done half of the work
for you sort of.
A.B.: Yeah, yeah. They've done all the work really,
so the rest is just absolute fun. It's like if you do a
painting and get half the way through, and you know you've
got it, from then on it's plain sailing; it's that kind
G.P.: Yeah, but you've gotta go in there and find
A.B.: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's horrible.
G.P.: Yeah it is; that's scary.
A.B.: Also with poetics it's that blank page, but
it has some music to it too, and they all suggest visual
things to me anyway. They suggest places. I mean like Forest;
there was a forest, a river, some trees. Which is not to
say that it's always easy; because when you get down to
the details; the vowels that go to the right notes, and
Robert's ability to sing them. So it's not always easy,
but it's always fun.
G.P.: Have you had any shows of your paintings?
A.B.: Yeah, well when I was actually doing painting.
I don't really paint anymore; I mean I do stuff for Robert,
I do stuff when there's something to do it for. Yeah, I
had a show about 20 years ago. But I've never actually joined
the art world in that sense. A bit like Robert never actually
having joined the music industry. (laughter)
A.B.: We just do what we do.
A.B.: But in fact it's lovely to do it for records
because so many more people will see it than would if it
were at a gallery.
G.P.: Yeah it's a great portable gallery.
A.B.: Yeah, yeah. The same with poetry as well; with
Dondestan and Shleep it actually reached around
60 or 70 thousand people, and you don't get poetry selling
like that do you?
A.B.: So it's nice when it happens, but it's not
too connected to the real world.
G.P.: (laughter) Not directly anyway.
A.B.: No, not directly. Only as being a kind of leech
G.P.: (laughing) Oh God!
G.P.: How parallel are your political views?
A.B.: Oh absolutely; except, I was born an anarchist,
so I would tend not to join things. Robert's more of a conformist;
he like the idea of belonging to something. But in terms
of worldview, and how things happen, and why they happen;
I mean we both it read between the lines in exactly the
A.B.: We both scream in horror at exactly the same
lies, and I think we're pretty similar.
G.P.: How do you feel about the current US presidency,
and their foreign policies?
G.P.: You don't have to answer this.
A.B.: Yeah, no I'm just thinking what to say
really. Shocking, appalling, extraordinary, just horrible.
G.P.: Yeah, me too.
A.B.: Yeah, but you know in a way really I'm
more shocked by ours.
G.P.: Oh really? The Tony Blair complicity?
A.B.: Yeah, well because he's supposed to be
on the our side. I'm not surprised when people on the right
behave according to their beliefs, I can understand them.
But he was supposed to make things better for us. He's been
shocking here as far as being sort of power crazy, and proud
of the fact of being Bushy's best friend.
G.P.: Oh yeah.
A.B.: It's just so horrible.
G.P.: Yeah, it's nightmarish.
A.B.: Well do you want me to give you back to
G.P.: Yeah I guess. It's been great to get
to talk to you.
A.B.: Okay, bye.
R.W.: That was a good idea.
G.P.: For a sense of perspective. You
said something about her sort of being the dark side of
the moon to your work.
R.W.: Yeah exactly, which is funny in a way because
she gets embarrassed as far as anyone drawing attention
to themselves, including me. If I get noticed at any kind
of social event she just dies on the spot of embarrassment.
But this is how I earn a living, somebody's got to get up
there and show their face occasionally, that's how it is.
G.P.: Well some people are not extroverted
in that way.
R.W.: Well I'm not very either. I mean the bit
about music I like is the solitary activity of making it.
Anyway; it's just that she is very shy. She speaks so well
you know, because she didn't start learning English until
she was seven. (laughing)
G.P.: Oh yeah, where's she from?
R.W.: Poland, her mother's Polish, well she's
a mixture of all kinds of things really. She's from the
land, and the forest, and about. I think that's why the
Forest song came up really. She has ancestral; or
at least childhood memories all mingled up with the forest,
but also the whole world being a sort of a bombsight; as
it was when she was a child.
G.P.: That's a great song!
R.W.: Yeah, well it's pretty heartfelt I think. The
stuff about Alfie that comes out, probably paradoxically
enough, the truth is true of what she does.
G.P.: And it's always nice to hear Brian Eno singing.
R.W.: Isn't it eh?
G.P.: I wish he'd do that more!
R.W.: Oh I know, l know! I tell you he's been working
on some stuff, and we've been seeing quite a lot of it during
the last year; and his studio is quite near Phil Manzanera's.
He's been making such interesting stuff; but he has the
same problem I have, of finishing things. But he's the very
opposite to me, in the sense that he's very very high tech,
and digital. I mean he's got hundreds of things carefully
filed and stored, and making more every day. And he buys
every new Japanese toy there is.
R.W.: He's here one day, there the next. It's on
and on; he's out there. It's Barcelona on thursday. He gets
around and sees things, and he's always so on top of that
kind of stuff. But maybe that's part of his thing, but he
we're all able to talk about Brian Eno's thinking; his ideas
and so on. I mean just as a pop musician; I think he's terrific,
you know. Songwriter, singer...
G.P.: Oh yeah! And he's got such a lovely distinctive
R.W.: He has, he has, and funnily enough for all
his high tech, he's very old fashioned about it. He stands
there full sway like an opera singer, and delivers, and
it's really strong. (laughs) He's terrific, a terrific singer.
The stuff he did was sort of backing vocals and you will
have gathered, we sort of managed to take away the top layer,
to reveal what he was doing underneath it, you know. And
then David Gilmore, he provides the magic fairy dust on
Forest for me.
G.P.: Yeah, it's a beautiful piece of work.
R.W.: Because he obviously contributes his guitar
solo, but also his pedal guitar all the way though it is
just terrific you know. He did a lot of work on it, you
know. And I hadn't asked him. We met a few times again after
20, 30 years or so, and he and I get along well, and I like
his band members. But I get along better with the blokes
than the gang. You know groups have a thing that way. Four
young men in a box, you know.
G.P.: Did we cover the making of Cuckooland;
what inspired it?
R.W.: I knew we had enough stuff; the key to it came
when Alfie came up with the words to Lullaby for Hamza.
And the rest is just getting into gear and getting on with
it. And Phil Manzanera who produced the opportunity to work;
the way he did it was; he just had a budget for the making
of the record, and he just said; "However long it takes."
And it won't bring the price up, which is an amazing thing.
G.P.: That's sensational!
R.W.: Well it was incredible. I mean he's always
had money troubles; but he's just like that. He said "I
don't do something by a written company's name, because
I don't want to put up with that." In the past so much
he'd been part of ended up owned by some alien reptilian...
R.W.: That's right. Luckily some people from that
era, have rescued that era. Lovely folks like Steve Feigenbaum
of Hannibal Records, or the folks at Hux Records in England;
but on a whole it's as easy to get buggered about by people
of that era. There are some nice people to work with; the
Ryko lot leading the way in America. They're conscientious,
and hard working. These things aren't terribly romantic,
but they are absolutely vital. Because apart from everything
else this is a job, this is what we do for a living. It's
really hard; it does take a bit of time and attention. It
just doesn't get the kind of massive sales that like commercial
releases get, so they can't really be indulgent in the way
that musicians might tend to want them to be. As for myself,
I haven't paid anybody like Brian, David, or Paul Weller;
because I couldn't afford them. But I pay the regular professional
musicians; like Annie Whitehead.
G.P.: You've chosen some interesting songs to
cover over the years: the Neil Diamond/Monkees song I'm
a Believer, Chic's At Last I am Free, and recently
the Bordeleaux/Felice Bryant song Raining in My Heart;
what is the criterion for choosing covers for you?
R.W.: Well really I always want to remind myself
and anybody who's interested, that I do have a great love
and respect for pop music and what it can be beyond just
being music for teenagers. And I wish to disassociate myself
from those elements of the avant garde, and experimental
music scene that have openly expressed their distaste for
G.P.: Well that snobbery seems kind of foolish
R.W.: Well it's particularly distasteful coming from
a culture that's meant to be a kind of alternative to an
antique established establishment. You don't want to see
a kind of conservative, elitist, snobbishness reemerging
in the avant garde. It just doesn't belong there
G.P.: You sang with Brian Wilson on a Ryuichi
Sakamoto cover of the Rolling Stones 'We Love You',
did you actually meet during that recording?
R.W.: No, no I didn't know he was on it. Ryuichi
just wanted me to sing it; and yes the reason that I did
it was because Ryuichi asked me to. The Japanese have such
a nice way of asking; I thought, this is such a nice letter,
I really ought to do this for him.
G.P.: It's really a nice version of that song.
R.W.: Well it is; but the idea that I would ever
sing a lyric by that songwriter. I don't know; I wouldn't,
myself have chosen that song. But that said; I don't really
feel at home in rock culture. But it wasn't because of the
song; it was because of Ryuichi has such an amazing, sensitive
expressive musical ear. He has a fantastic musical knowledge.
G.P.: Ah, he's a wonderful musician.
R.W.: Well he's actually a great musician in the
sense of a being a classically trained musician. That kind
of refinement of technique; he has it. I didn't know Brian
Wilson was on it till I heard it. And you can't fault that.
G.P.: (I turn over the tape. As I do I tell Robert
that I hope it's all recording; part of his reply gets recorded)
R.W.: Well then you might have to do it back from
memory. Like a dream, which seems fitting. (laughter)
G.P.: Well I can try! (laughter) Do you think
it's surprising that you might be doing some of your best
work at your age?
R.W.: Well I'm very relieved to hear you say that
because one of the things I felt uncomfortable about was
the relentless emphasis... It's a bit like the aesthetic
today is that it's only a youth thing. You know it's a wonderful
stage to go through; but it's really amazing if you have
any luck, how much of your life, isn't youth. It's decades
and decades of watching and learning, and finding things
out. And you're quite lucky if you survive long enough to
really have time to have thought about things, and worked
through your ideas. So really it should be the case that,
that when you come up in age, you should benefit from that.
G.P.: Well I think part of the problem is working
from the template of a pop artist is erroneous; when looking
at artists in other fields their later years are often their
R.W.: Well that's sort of acknowledged in many arts,
but for some reason it's kind of doesn't sit comfortably
with the way pop music is promoted; which is fine. I think
the kind of central thing of rock, and of pop music is it's
a celebration of youth. It's wonderful and I think every
generation should happily have it's own sort of coded language,
and it's own haircuts, and it's own group sounds, and it's
nobody else's business. On the whole pop culture is a wonderful
thing and it is about youth. And the fact is that it comes from a much wider and older tradition,
which is sort of folk music really. And if you look for
the origins of rock & roll and pop, it's sort of
Irish and American country music, and then the Black equivalent,
and the Italian equivalent, and so on, and so on. And that's
the roots of it; and that's a much bigger river. A bigger
G.P.: And connected to a lot of other rivers.
R.W.: Yeah. And there's a lot of music that isn't
pop music at all. Still I think the life's blood is singable
songs and dancible rhythms. I think Charles Mingus said
G.P.: So are you a jazz artist or a pop artist?
R.W.: I can't place myself in music at all really. The kind
of people that I relate to, if anybody; I'm not comparing
myself with the quality of the work of these people, just
that I identify with as people who are working their way
through their lives; over decades and years. The painters
that I like; from the early part of the 20th century. Some
of the ones that Alfie mentioned; and Van Gogh or "Van
Go" as they probably say in America.
G.P.: No we can pronounce it right here sometimes.
R.W.: (laughing) Well it's (correct pronunciation)
G.P.: Yeah it's got that (throat sound) it's hard
R.W.: It's like Flemish; it's unsayable.
G.P.: You know Jonathan Richman wrote that song
about Vincent Van Gogh; you may not have heard it.
R.W.: I like Jonathan Richman.
G.P.: He said he was really lucky that he didn't
know how to pronounce it when he wrote it. Because Van "Go"
rhymes with a lot more stuff
R.W.: (laughing) Yeah, right. Very good. Anyway,
you know who I'm talking about. And Marc Chagall, who's
original name was Moishe Shagal.
G.P.: Oh yeah? He's wonderful, very magical.
R.W.: Great great, and part of the wonderful part
of the great Russian Jewish tradition that has given us
stuff in every field. I can't imagine what the world of
music, or ideas, or science, would be without their contribution.
And yeah, I don't know; sorta Joan Miro. Yeah I was very
interested in Joan Miro of Catalan, and how those people,
grew old interested me. Late Picasso, late Miro; where all
of the apparent elements of craft are just gradually discarded,
and we just get this sort of like hieroglyphic, childlike
scrawl that they would have started out with. And I find
that quite a moving process. So those are the sort of people
I feel on the same planet as; let's put it like that.
G.P.: Could you tell me a bit about the BBC documentary,
Free Will And Testament?
R.W.: Well that was suggested to me by a man called
Jez Nelson, who does a jazz program on radio BBC 3, and
had the opportunity through the participation of BBC 4.
And I was surprised that he'd ask me, because his main work
is in new jazz; but he does other stuff as well. Anyway
he asked Mark Kidel, who is a very good filmmaker, a very
good director who works in England. And he'd approached
us a few years ago anyway about making a film, but hadn't
gotten anyone to back it; so then Jez Nelson gave him that.
So they went to me; well "What do you do?" Well
I got so embarrassed that I don't do anything that I said
well; "I could sing some of the songs that Annie Whitehead's
band does, and I can sing them with Annie." And it
ended up getting done on film.
G.P.: Well I hope that it gets shown over here.
R.W.: Well Mark, I think he put it together very
well. I think it's difficult work to do, because I just
sort of sit here like a cactus in the desert really.
R.W.: Like some kind of Andy Warhol film really,
like the Empire State Building. (laughing) But he made it;
he sort of condensed things so that it seemed like lots
had happened. I remember they were making a TV film about
Quentin Crisp here in England; and John Hurt was playing
him. He was talking to Crisp and said "I hope we can
get an accurate picture of your life." And Quentin
replied "Oh I hope your film is far more exciting than
G:P.: (laughing) That's great!
R.W.: (laughing) Yeah, I hadn't realized till I saw
Mark's film how uninteresting I am.
G.P.: What are some of your thoughts regarding
, the current US president and his foreign policies?
R.W.: I don't know, you see. There are so many great
Americans that I get very upset when people say that people
like me are being anti-American. I say "No I'm not
anti-Michael Moore, I'm not anti-Noam Chomsky." I probably
more immersed in great American culture, than most of those
people who claim to be representing it. You know what I
mean? I could talk to any of those people in his cabinet
about Mingus and Charles Ives, and they couldn't catch me
out on a detail. So don't talk to me about being anti-American.
I can't imagine my life without the American cultural influence;
which I attribute to the fact that it's a country of mass
immigration from all around the world reconfigured. That's
the magic of America to me; and a great gift to the world.
I mean looking at American history which is rooted in part
in English history, which is why the language that were
speaking is called English. And people think that it's something
fake, or sort of wishful thinking that the point of America
is that it's the land of the free. ln fact the freedom that
the British settlers, as I understand it; were looking for.
Was the freedom to form these very tight strict religious
sects, away from the kind of liberalizing influences that
were spreading through Europe. So although it was a freedom;
there was embedded in it a freedom to be more conservative
than their European ancestors. Rather like the Afrikaners
who left Holland precisely it was becoming free and easy.
They wanted to stay strict to the Calvinist type rigidity;
you know tribal rigidity. So it's always been kind of ambiguous
in that sense. My message to America is "Look we love
you already, so leave us alone!" (laughing) You know
what I mean, you don't have to keep knocking at the door
saying "Love me more, love me more." You know
I think it's an embarrassment for the Americans I know;
what's going on right now. Who just sort of sit back and
watch this stuff. Well you know, Noam Chomsky was asked
"What would you put in its place?", and he said
"It's very simple; to start out. Stop doing bad things."
(laughter) "Start there."
R.W.: That's a pretty good one isn't it?
G.P.: It pares it down to something pretty simple
R.W.: I think he's great, I love Chomsky.
G.P.: Oh he's great; and it's nice to hear you
mention Michael Moore; he's actually got relatives here
and has visited a few times.
R.W.: Oh really? Well we were lucky enough to see
Michael Moore in action on stage in London where he got
a full house every night. As great as the films and the
books are; the stage performance was uh... I felt "I'd
witnessed someone in the great tradition of Lenny Bruce
and Mort Sahl; you know what I mean?
G.P.: Yeah, he's brilliant.
R.W.: That's the dark side of the moon that we hope
gets spun 'round to the front one day.
G.P.: How inspirational was your early meeting
with Daevid Allen?
R.W.: Well the main thing about Daevid was he was
older, and hadn't been through the stuff; that me as a schoolboy
had been told that I was gonna have to do. You know, passing
exams and all that. Well I was rubbish at passing exams,
I was rubbish at school. (laughs) Daevid showed me that
you are allowed to fail exams really. He was already in
his twenties when we were schoolboys.
G.P.: A sage old fellow.
R.W.: And he was already out there doing stuff. He
already had contacts in Paris and London with some people
in the avant garde scene. So that was the influence there
G.P.: How did you and Alfreda meet?
R.W.: Well we met sort of before we knew we met.
She had actually worked at the bar at Ronny Scott's club
in London; for starts I must have seen her quite a lot there.
I think actually I noticed Alfie at the Roundhouse, which
is one of the venues that groups
played in those days. In fact it's the same venue where
we saw Michael Moore. In fact when we went to see Michael
Moore, we went up to the pillar on which she was leaning
when I went and spoke to her that first time. (laughter)
R.W.: I just saw her; as it were for the first time.
And she was so different from the kind of charming sort
of stoned wilting flowers around the place. She had a kind
of upright dignity; and kind of like a... I don't know,
she just looked really good to me
and that was it. And the fact that when I did visit her
flat she had the hippest record collection you can imagine!
And it was all right there; Sly Stone, Coltrane...
G.P.: And that tells you a lot right there.
R.W.: Well you know right there I thought "What's
G.P.: Yeah, you know it's a good sign. That record
collection tells you a lot.
R.W.: Well it's a start; and then she had these art
books of the German expressionists. But mainly she just
looked fantastic. She looked sort of like Jean Seberg the
G.P.: Oh, I loved Jean Seberg!
R.W.: Well Alfie was sort of in that mould. I guess
I was the lucky one there.
G.P.: I guess!
R.W.: It's timing they say.
G.P.: Well Robert I've gotta tie it up.
R.W.: Okay. (laughing) Thanks for your interest;
and I think your magazine is extraordinary.
G.P.: I just talked to Terry Riley for the next issue.
R.W.: Oh he's a great man. Please include somewhere
in this my great gratitude to Terry Riley. He was very much
an important part of Paris; and while we're talking about
Daevid Allen. It was though Daevid Allen that I discovered
Terry Riley; and he's been a benign and discreet source
throughout our lives. Say hello to him through this interview.
A lovely man.
G.P.: Okay Robert, well thank you for your time.
R.W.: Okay, it's a pleasure, and thanks for your
interest in me.
Selected solo Robert Wyatt Discography
The End of an Ear (1970 CBS LP)
Rock Bottom (Virgin 26/7/74 LP)
I'm A Believer/Memories (Virgin 6/9/74 single)
The Peel Sessions (Strange Fruit 1974 EP)
Ruth Is Stranger Than Richard (Virgin 30/5/75
At Last I Am Free/Strange Fruit (Rough Trade
Arauco/Caimenera (Rough Trade 3/1980 single)
Stalin Wasn't Stalin' / Stalingrad (Rough
Trade '81 single)
Shipbuilding/Memories Of You (Rough Trade
Nothing Can Stop Us (Rough Trade 3/1982 LP)
With Ben Watt - Summer Into Winter (Cherry
Red 4/82 EP)
The Animals Film (Rough Trade 5/1982 LP)
Work In Progress (Rough Trade 8/1984 EP)
4 Tracks EP (Virgin 1984)
The Wind Of Change/Naimibia (Rough Trade
Old Rottenhat (Rough Trade 11/1985 LP)
Dondestan (Rough Trade 27/8/1991 LP/CD).
A completely remixed and revised version of Dondestan
was released in 1998 by Thirsty Ear /Hannibal
A Short Break (Voiceprint 19/9/1992 CD)
Mid-Eighties (Rough Trade 1993 CD)
With John Greaves and others - Songs (Resurgence
Shleep (Hannibal 9/1997 CD)
Free Will And Testament/The Sight Of The Wind
Solar Flares Burn For You (Cuneiform, 2003)
Cuckooland (Hannibal 2003)